I wonder if these Rabbis think the Shivtay Koh (12 tribes) appeared in Pharoh's court dressed like Al Capone, too?
I'll point out further, at the risk of denying my daughter a good husband, that the law books tells us to dress for prayer in the way that we dress in the street, ie in the way that respectable people present themselves.
The gangsters in this photo fail on two counts. First, they aren't at prayer. Second, if the president of the United States is without his hat, that is a pretty good sign that appearing with no hat is considered "respectable" in that time and place.
So why are they wearing hats? Perhaps because they put Jewish style ahead of Jewish law.
UPDATE: This post isn't an argument against wearing hats in prayer. It is an argument against treating hats (and a specific type of hat, no less) like an essential uniform. This is something new under the Jewish sun. The Chofetz Chaim and earlier authorities would not have recognized this idea. They taught that Jews must wear only what respectable people wear, a defintion that changes with the time and place. Outside of prayer, a hat has no inherent purpose.
The way some very-Orthodox Jews treat there hats today is a new development and one that should trouble thoughtful Jews.
Definitely, they should remove their hats, beards, Tzitit and Kipah.
ReplyDeleteTo bad they cant do anything about their Bris.
1. "Shivtay Koh (12 tribes) appeared in Pharoh's court dressed like Al Capone".
Indeed regarding the Jews in Egypt says they wore distinctive clothing
2. Like it or not, what you call “Jewish style” some call “Minhag”.
3. the Rabbis are called “gangsters” because they are wearing hats? Do you know them?
4. “if the president of the United States is without his hat, that is a pretty good sign that appearing with no hat is considered "respectable" in that time and place.“
The question is not whether it’s respectful not to ware a hat, it’s whether it’s disrespectful to ware one, and the answer is no. What president considers it disrespectful to meet with people of a different religion or culture that are dressed differently? Do you think expects the pope to ware a suit?
5. “Because they put Jewish style ahead of Jewish law”
Did I read correctly? Are you saying it’s against Halacha to ware a hat? It seems to me that you don’t know Jewish Law and have no Jewish style.
I have a feeling you dislike these rabbis for other reasons!
C'mon Ber, we'd all love to know what makes these Chabad Rabbis gangsters. Out with it...
ReplyDeleteWhy dont you invite Luke Ford as a guest blogger and then you will realy get traffic on this site
ReplyDeleteI've belatedly begun my Chanukah blogging with a post entitled "Frum Fantasy or How a Legend Spawned an Industry."
ReplyDeleteJust a quick response to the first anonymous poster.
ReplyDelete---------------
It's funny, the oldtimers (people who grew up before JFK made going hatless respectful) used to take off their hats indoors, in offices, etc as a sign of respect.
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Unfortunately, JFK did not make going hatless respectable, what he actually did was make it acceptable to be disrespectable.
(It's interesting to note that the first president to take substantial criticism from the media was JFK. Hey, why not? After all the President of the United States is no longer a cut above the rest, he's just 'one of the boys'. A pity. Bill Clinton was just the inevitable conclusion of a decline in standards set in motion by JFK.)
And as far as the secular standard of removing one's hat when indoors, this is a standard which simply does not apply for one who keeps his head covered as a sign of respect and humility before G-d. G-d is outdoors. G-d is indoors as well.
Some notes, for those who refuse to understand English:
ReplyDelete"Gangster" was a reference to the hats, and not to anything else. Did you really not understand that? I rather doubt it; still, apologies if this was not absolutely clear from the context.
There is no reason to suggest that the shivtay koh wore distincticve clothing. The Jews about whom that midrash was written lived many years later. And the midrash itself is problematic for it suggests we must all dress like ancient Israelites, even in our day.
Jewish style and minhag are not the same thing. A wise man (or even someone of ordinary intelligance) understands the diffrence.
Jewish law says the Jews should dress for prayer as respectable people dress in the street. These Jews are not praying, and respectable people no longer wear hats in the street. Therefore they is no longer any requirement to wear a hat. Those who do, wear them for sentimental reasons, or because they have elevated their hats to a status chazal never intended.
That, said, wearing a hat is not against Jewish law. But, neither is it required by Jewish law. Those who do not undestand this, and insist on wearing a hat in all situiations are putting Jewish style ahead of every other consideration.
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ReplyDeleteDB: I wonder if these Rabbis think the Shivtay Koh (12 tribes) appeared in Pharoh's court dressed like Al Capone, too?
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I wonder if DovBoor is actually as big an Am Ha'Aretz as he makes himself out to be.
While Chazal don't specifically record their attire, there is one thing we do know about how the Shivtei Kah appeared before Pharaoh.
The Shevatim made absolutely no attempt to assimilate themselves or to accommodate Egyptian societal values at this meeting. In fact, Yosef told them specifically to represent themselves as exactly what they were - shepherds. And that is exactly what they did, despite the fact that this was an abhorrent practice within the context of Egyptian society. In fact, Chazal say, that the Shevatim represented themselves as such *because* this was an abhorrent custom to the Egyptians. This would serve to draw a line between Egyptian society and the Bnei Yisrael. Indeed, this led to the settlement of the Bnai Yisrael in Eretz Goshen, apart from the society at large.
Only later, did assimilation lead to the fear, hatred and finally enslavement. This is a pattern which unfortunately repeats throughout the ages. During the Egyptian exile, we had the Assimilationists. During the Greek exile we had the Hellenists. And today, we have DovBoor and his ilk.
Hundreds of heads of state, religious and community leaders have appeared before various Presidents in the past, wearing the garb of their tradition. It doesn't bother DovBoor though, until it happens to be a group of Rabbis.
I'm not a big hat guy myself. I wear one mainly on Shabbos and to Simchos. I admit that if I personally was granted an audience with the President I'd probably ditch the hat. But it doesn't bother me in the least to see a group of religious Jews appearing before the President in their traditional attire. Why does it bother DovBoor, I wonder? Self hatred....
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DB: I'll point out further, at the risk of denying my daughter a good husband...
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The greatest risk to your daughter's chances of finding a good husband is her father. But I'll give you some advice for the future. If you can keep your mouth shut, you can greatly minimize this risk.
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DB: The gangsters in this photo fail on two counts.
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DovBoor sounds like he hasn't been out from under his rock since the 1960's. In fact, most gangsters today look more like DovBoor and his gang of sycophants, than like the Rabbis in that picture.
Bottom line though, we know what really bugs DovBoor about that picture. It's that fact that President Reagan has a larger Menorah than DovBoor has.
Classic case of Menorah envy.
I agree. The jackass deliberately misundersatnds you, and then uses his false twists of your words, to insult you and to claim you said things that you never said. The nekudah os evil. Truely a horrendous man. I would not be at all sorry to see his trash deleted.
ReplyDeleteSure guys.
ReplyDeleteIf you can't debate, then delete.
That'll be a nice forum. A bunch of sycophants sitting around patting each other on the back for being more enlightened than the Torah itself.
Ilu Haya Sham, Lo Haya Nig'al.
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ReplyDeleteskeptic: Oh look who's back. The miss the point moron, with even less of inteligance to say than usual.
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Whoa skeptic, you really gotta calm down.
Relax... Take a deep breath....
It's not befitting for the greatest mind in the Western hemisphere to present himself like some illiterate hick from the backwoods of Appalachia.
Now, why don't you take your meds and then we can have a nice discussion.
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ReplyDeleteskeptic: ... And to top it off he insults you ...
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Oh, isn't that sweet? skeptic sticking up for poor little maligned Dovie.
Listen sketic, you need to grow up. DovBoor has got a big enough mouth, it makes him look bad to have his immature little sycophant sticking up for him.
It's also interesting to note that DovBoor's caustic comments toward that 'group of gangsters' doesn't raise your ire, although G-d forbid anyone should cast aspersions against your beloved DovBoor. The term 'hypocrite' comes to mind...
Grow up little dude. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWow. The miss-the-point-moron has hit a new low.
ReplyDeleteAs a rule, I don't mind him flaunting his learning disability on my site. It's amusing and it keeps him off the street. Also, I figure the more time he spends harassing me, the less time he has to harass his wife, kids and neighbors.
But today the miss-the-point-moron crossed the line.
You see, even though he __agrees__ with my central point ("I admit that if I personally was granted an audience with the President I'd probably ditch the hat.") he still can't restrain himself from launching a vile, and groundless attack on me, my family and my readers.
I'm a self-hating-Jew? I'm an Assimilationist? My readers are sycophants? We think, "we're more enlightened than the Torah itself?" My blog might keep my daughter from finding a husband?
Has anything ever appeared on DovBear that supports such absurd statements?
We don't deserve this abuse and it stops today.
Think about who you insulted with this post. In addition to me, R. Joseph B. Soloveitchik; he wore a hat during prayer well into the 1980s. R. Norman Lamm still wears a hat during prayer. R. Hershel Schachter, R. Henoch Leibowitz, R. Shalom Yosef Elyashiv, R. Chaim Kanievsky, R. Aharon Lichtenstein and many more great rabbis and profound thinkers CURRENTLY wear hats during prayer.
ReplyDeleteMaybe there's something that you aren't understanding.
As I said on my blog nushworld.blogspot.com Dov Bear is essentially right... Wearing black suits and hats is irrelevant in today's world. Especially when you do it in 35 degree heat of Israeli summer, phew stinky.
ReplyDeleteLearning to adjust is NOT assimilation. The black suit thingy is just plain stupid. Dov Bear's reference to Gangsters was obviously about the dress code not the people representing it - any idiot could have got that!
There is no need to get nasty or personal. If you don't have something intelligent to say - don't say anything (my father's very wise words).
Simcha -
ReplyDeleteThe men in the photo are not praying. My post wasn't an argument against wearing hats in prayer. It was an argument against treating hats like an essential uniform. This is something new under the Jewish sun. Moreover, until very recently any head covering (white, grey, green, beret, cap, etc) was accepted for prayer. Now if it isn't black and a fedora you're suspect. A thoughtful Jew should be troubled about either of these developments. (See the Abadi post I blogged more recently.)
Nushyman: come back anytime.
I think you're all missing the REAL point here:
ReplyDeleteAre you required to wear Stetsons or Borsellinos?
Walk slowly, the midrash deserves further discussion. I'd also like to explore the difference between style and minhag. Perhaps in a future post.
ReplyDeleteI don't object to hats, or to personal customs. I object to the idea that a hat (and a specific hat, no less) constitutes an official Jewish uniform. This is a very new cultural development, and one that should distrub thoughtful Jews.
Walk slowly, I'm also not sure about what this means
ReplyDelete"Your type of thinking has not stood the test of time. The institutions that maintained similar “Derechs” were decimated my Communism, Secular Zionism and Haskola. Few survived when the going go tough."
The very, very Charedi camps form the minority of Jews today. Furthermore, the only point under discussion is the idea that hats constitute the Jewish uniform, to be worn at all times. As I said, that's a very new idea, an idea that would have been unfamiliar to the Chofetz Chaim and earlier authorities. So those who may disagree (and insist that hats should be worn by Jews at all times) have not been around long enough to have "withstood any test of time."
MoChassid,
ReplyDeletePerhaps in the future I will. I thought it would be interesting to talk about how hats have been elevated to a new status in normative Orthodox Judaism. Unfortunately it brought the Dopes and the Degenerates crawling out of the woodwork.
I don’t mind discussing my posts on their merits. But it’s pointless to get into a pissing match with someone who doesn’t know the very basics of Jewish history or Jewish law. I don’t have time for people who imagine the Judaism has never changed, and who insist that anyone with a critical thought is “self-hating” or worse. I'm not running a therapy circle for ignorant and obnoxious jackasses.